For the folks blasting me for questioning certain tenets of the Catholic Church, for those folks telling me the Church is never wrong, and is always "univocal" ...
I ask you to kindly explain this.
Love to all. Even you, the angry leading the angrier.
16 comments:
I think you've misunderstood the nature of infallibility and indefectability regarding the Church and her teachings. It's not that the Church is never wrong or that members and leaders of the Church have never made mistake or done bad things. Rather, the important thing is that the Church has never taught, nor will it teach, heresy. Of course mistakes have been made; the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.
Put more succinctly the link you've provided is a red herring.
Ah, then you're missing my point.
Your friend insisted that it was wrong of me to ask about and challenge a teaching of the Church, because the church is "univocal" and always speaks with one voice.
That's what I mean.
"If you hear a thing being accused of being too tall and too short, too red and too green, too bad in one way and too bad also in the opposite way, then you may be sure that it is very good." - G.K. Chesterton
P.S. I hope this discussion doesn't devolve into petty squabbling. I think there's plenty to be learned by all involved if we can just remain civil. :)
I guess I didn't reload before commenting a second time, so I didn't see your comment until now.
Your friend insisted that it was wrong of me to ask about and challenge a teaching of the Church, because the church is "univocal" and always speaks with one voice.
What Steve means by "univocal" is that the Magesterium only ever presents one official teaching on a matter, in those cases for which there is an official teaching. That is not always the case - a point often missed by critics of the Church. To pick a silly example, there is no official doctrine regarding whether Jesus had an innie or an outie. Theologians are free to debate these and other unsettled matters.
There is, however, an established set of doctrines regarding the sexual matters you queried your priest about. Some have been held since the beginning of the Church and others have developed with time. All are part of the Deposit of Faith and are binding for Catholics. The Church teaches Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture with one voice regarding settled matters such as these. There are not multiple authoritative viewpoints on such matters. Bad popes, bad priests, and bad parishioners will come and go, but the Holy Spirit will ensure that the Church never teaches heresy. That is the one voice of the Church that Steve referred to.
BTW, am I "the angry" leading Steve "the angrier" or is Steve leading someone angrier yet?
You guys need to get out more. I am not angry, nor am I being particularly nasty. But just to be clear, the univocality of which I was speaking was in regard to contraception, which was what the original "question" was about. Now I'd also add that the Church has been equally univocal on homosexual behavior and abortion as well. But that was not part of original contention. Yes, obviously Rich misunderstands infallibility as it applies to the Church's ordinary and extraordinary magisterium... and I might add seems to understand it about as well as a fundamentalist protestant. Obviously no pope is infallible in everything he says, much less in everything he does, and even less so in the prudential pronouncements he might make and the prudential decisions he might take regarding war and genocide. But these are misunderstandings that can be cleared up by reading the Catechism, a perusal of which I would expect to be a minimum effort that might be construed as a good faith effort at understanding the Church's teaching.
As a catholic, I am often disappointed by the Church hierarchy, and by the local leadership as well.
Clearly my local church does not have confidence in it's own 'univocality', or at least lay support of it. I know this because they engaged my son's School of Religion class in a discussion on the Church's stance on pre-marital sex and birth control without pre- or post-notice.
Is this not a topic worthy of discussion in the home? Is this not something we should teach together? Nope. The 'univocal' church chose to voice it's teaching in secret, hoping to get the idea in without parent interference.
Oh, and the Jews should NEVER forgive the Church for the Holocaust. That is a sin for which we will all pay for all eternity. This will be our cross to bear as a faith
Oh, and the Jews should NEVER forgive the Church for the Holocaust. That is a sin for which we will all pay for all eternity.
When? Where? Will we all be in Hell or just unable to escape Purgatory? There's no punishment in Heaven, so if you're right, none of us will be there.
Also, the same God that taught us to love our neighbors and forgive them made the Jews His chosen people, so I highly doubt He wants the Jews to refuse forgiveness to the Church, either its WWII-era or current form and membership.
Steve: I admit it... I came to the Catholic Church because I was overtaken by the message of the Gospels, and because my wife is Catholic. My RCIA class consisted of an in-depth study of Luke.
I am still learning.
Back to the your last comment. You're not being "particularly" nasty? Honestly, that says all that I need to know about you, my friend. And as for clarity, go read the Catechism's various explanations of the Trinity, then come back here and tell me how "cleared up" THAT question is.
Sheesh.
"But these are misunderstandings that can be cleared up by reading the Catechism, a perusal of which I would expect to be a minimum effort that might be construed as a good faith effort at understanding the Church's teaching."
The new Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a good resource, too. :)
"Let no evil talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for edifying, as fits the occasion, that it may impart grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, with all malice, and be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you." - Ephesians 4:29-32
Rich,
My RCIA was pretty in depth, and I've read quite a bit about the Church, etc. - although I am by no means an expert.
I have no freaking CLUE what these guys are talking about as far as "univocally".
I just wanted to say...
Humans are obviously not infallible and the Church is now, has been and will be - a human organization. It's run by PEOPLE, and therefore there are bound to be mistakes, corruption, etc. etc. etc.
However, it is also, I believe, a Holy organization - ordained by Jesus when given to Peter and continually guided by the Holy Spirit. It is because of that that I give the Church ultimate authority on some things.
And I think that is where people - especially Americans - struggle. We are not accustomed to the idea of "authority". We are accustomed to doing what "feels right" or "feels good".
I wish you had my original comment on your first post.
Rich, some things are timeless. Some ideas, rules, etc. should not be changed simply because society's tolerance has become so twisted.
The Church's job - when it comes to "official teachings" - is not to be the most popular, modern, etc. voice. It is to be the compass - the strong, never wavering compass, that we can turn to.
I really may need to sit and sort all these things out and write a realllly long post about this.
First of all, Vinny, the Church is not responsible for the Holocaust. Hitler is! Pius XII and the Church saved many many Jews from the Holocaust. They did as much as they possible could without provoking the Nazi's further. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, thousands of Jews in Italy would have been killed. I'd suggest reading The Myth of Hitler's Pope by Rabbi David Dalin: http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344/sr=8-1/qid=1168620331/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-1893558-0484611?ie=UTF8&s=books
Second, if you send your kids to a Catholic school you should expect them to teach the kids about the Church's stance on pre-marital sex and birth control. The school has a duty to teach the faith and that is part of it. I seriously doubt that there was any covert action going on as you suggest.
Rich,
On the infallibilty of the Pope, a good thing to keep in mind is that even though there have been bad popes who were killing each other and had mistresses, they never changed the teaching of the Church to say that it was okay to have mistresses or commit murder. While they were scroundrels the teaching of the Church was still 100% clear. The Holy Spirit makes it so that in matters of faith and morals, the Church can only teach the Truth. The gates of Hell shall never prevail against the Church. If you are a Christian, especially a Catholic, you MUST believe this since it is revealed to us by Christ Himself.
Britt,
I absolutely agree with you that the church is a "holy" organization.
I also agree that the Church shouldn't take public opinion polls, and make decisions based on those. I hope I didn't give you that impression.
But.
Sometimes, wrong is wrong. Heck, there's a time-honored tradition of arguing with God DIRECTLY. I think the Church can withstand a challenge or two from ol' Championable.
ABSOLUTELY. Faith without question is meaningless.
"Faith without question is meaningless."
Perhaps, but as a wise Slashdot commenter once said, "What's the point of questioning authority if you don't [respectfully] listen to the answers?"
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